SymProjects Forum
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: perkabrod on March 04, 2012, 07:37:52 pm
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I've already bought 2x rev burners but I haven't bought a cluster yet, though I'm in contact with a guy selling 200sx S13 cluster.
However, he said it hooks to a ECU and not to Coils. I don't really know what that means but I'd like to hear your experienced opinion.
I want to control rev meter and speedometer "only"
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Hello mate,
I got a Nissan R34 GTR cluster and it connect to a ECU too. I guess it's similar to your S-13 cluster.
If your speedo is not connect to a wire ( with a big tube in back of it) it's possible to use it with rev burners.
I'd ordered rev burner and waiting for it to arrive to test. I will post my result when I done it.
Before this you should try to find the repair manual of S-13 and find out the pin that provide 12v+, GND and signal input of speed and rev meter. If my test is successful, you will just need to connect these pin to revburner.
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I haven't bought a S13 cluster yet because I'm not sure if it will work. But here is except from the service manual (200SX S13)
(http://dreamfield.dyndns.org/~eric/sim/gauges/s13_gauges1.png)
(http://dreamfield.dyndns.org/~eric/sim/gauges/s13_gauges2.png)
(http://dreamfield.dyndns.org/~eric/sim/gauges/s13_gauges3.png)
Does that mean anything to anyone? :D
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ehh...from me it looks like the 12V+ are pin 24 and GND are pin 28...or oppositing.
Signal of tacho should be 19, not sure which one is signal of electronic speed meter (6, 7 12 and 13).
You can see this thread and try to find more detail in the service manual. Wish other smart guys can give you better advice.:D
http://www.symprojects.com/forum/index.php?topic=442.0
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Okay... well, here it is. Looks like nothing else I've seen.
If anybody knows how to do it then I will be most grateful :-*
Don't forget that service manual photos are uploaded earlier in this thread
Image link:
http://dreamfield.dyndns.org/~eric/revburner/s13_cluster_01.jpg (http://dreamfield.dyndns.org/~eric/revburner/s13_cluster_01.jpg)
Embedded:
(http://dreamfield.dyndns.org/~eric/revburner/s13_cluster_01.jpg)
(http://dreamfield.dyndns.org/~eric/sim/gauges/s13_gauges1.png)
If nothing is possible I'll guess I'll just buy a type R meter and some speedometer and try to retrofit it into the dash I already got... :(
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Hello mate,
I'd found a meter scheme of S15 in japanese site:
(http://www.taq-freaks.com/CGI/TBBS/file/s15m.jpg)
In fact I can't find enough information in the 2 pics you posted. I see all meters share (24) and (28) so they must be +12V and GND, ut don't know which one is which. tachometer singal is 19 and I don't know which one is signal in 6 wires of speedo meter. could you try to find a similar one like I posted in your S13 manual?
I assume your cluster use a meter control unit too like R34/S15. All signal to meters are control by it, so we need to power it and send signals from rev burner to it and let it drive the meters. I'm not sure connect wires to meter directly is safe.
In the pics I posted you should notice 4 connectors, (12) is ign(+12V) and 9 is earth(GND), (14) is speedo and (15) is rev counter, I can say just connect these 4 wire to make it work with S15 cluster.
Please try to find the same connectors in S13 manual, or try to send it to me to check.
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Clock is 4:47 in the night (girlfriend is away travelling this weekend hence me still not in bed lol)
Anyway. I've got most of it sorted out. Appreciate your help. I'm too tired to keep my eyes open but I'll post first thing when I wake up, I'm 90% done with a photoshop sketch showing all my findings and stuff I've found on the net...
I've located gauge illumination, battery, ignition, tachometer input signal (WEEEHO!) but there are 2 connections for the speedometer and I will have to sleep before I do further testing on what is what...
On one of the still unknown speedometer pins it says "2P" and on the other "Japanese letters then +" but + could be Japanese letter too :P
I will ask my japanese instagram followers about the japanese text and the 2P should be googable. I found the rest on google like ATM = tachometer input signal but that forum I was on didn't mention "2P"...
Good night!
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A good news. I just found a excel file from a japanese site that talking about how to install a S15 cluster to S13. There are all connectors of S13 described.
All you need to use are:
(3)=IGN(+12V)
(28)=GND
(18)=tachometer
(7)=speedo
Try it please.:)
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Where is the thumbs up icon when you need it (Y)
:D
Man, I need to sleep but so eager to get this to work, feels like a 7 year old on christmas haha. Will take a few hours sleep and dig in. But if that works then everything should be ready for a first hookup tomorrow.
By the way, do you know if I can use only 1 power supply for tach, speedometer and gauge lights? I have 2 of those symprojects offered just in case...
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Yes you can, you only need to use 1 rev burner to power the ECU and it will supply the power of all meter. You just need to connect signal wires of tacho/speedo etc.
And for gauge lights, I didn't try all (ABS indicator is light in my cluster) but I think yes if your adapter supply enough currents to ECU. Too few lights can be simulated with racing games anyway...
I plan to change A/T lights (N/1/2/P etc) into MT 1-6 indicators, but they share negative in R34 cluster but Pro shift share positive...still think about how do do this now.
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>meter pins it says "2P" and on the other "Japanese letters then +" but + could be Japanese letter too Tongue
2P means 2 pulse, S15 use 4 pulse meter but have a 2 pluse outout, and S13 use 2 pulse. Not sure if this effect the out of rev burner.
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Here we go:
Gonna reboot computer and start off connecting +12V to ignition and try to get tachometer to work, if succesful I'll give the speedometer a try.
I have a question though, and that is related to getting the CLOCK and LAMPS to work.
Look at the bottom of the picture and you see what my plan to do is.
I also need to know if 12V@1.0A is enough to power GAUGES, CLOCK and LAMP BULBS.
Hope this image can help anyone else.. Well, now I "just" need to see if it works... might not be compatible with revburner :(
(http://dreamfield.dyndns.org/~eric/revburner/s13_cluster_02.jpg)
To be continued
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My advice is: I'm not sure, you must check the manual by yourself.
The clocks should be self-powered because I guess it's part of ECUs like the odo meter in my R34 cluster. You can try power the ECU first and see if the clock go live.
In my experience, ECU will power all meter without you give them +12V, but some lamps need to fill some condition to light.
For a example, if connector X have +5V current supply, lamp Y will light. I'm not sure these lamps need more power, you need to test them by yourself...with certain risks.
And for most lamps that use removable bulbs, I will suggest you remove them and replacement by some LEDs that controled directly by Pro shift or other control cards. This make the work more easily because you don't need to mess with ECUs.
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Okay... tachometer works flawlessly but speedometer looks dead. Haven't gotten it to react on anything. I've tried both the official driver and the custom made that was posted here recently...
I also tried using the board I used for tachometer but loaded the speedo firmware on it and it didn't work either.
So, what to do? Basically everything's been tested and it comes down to this:
1. What so special with a 2 pulse signal as this model has?
2. As simple as a broken speedometer.. though the seller insisted it worked
SOMETHING REALLY WORTH mentioning though, is that when cluster has power. The speedometer needle has resistance to it while you try to move it with your finger... sort of like a springy feel and bounces back to 0km/h when you release it. Without power it "flows" slowly back to 0km/h. So I guess it's getting power at least. Does any of the devs have any clue? Is it possible that there's some kind of highly mismatch on the speedometers calibration or something as easy as that? I notice that when you drag the needle to around 170 km/h (around 2'o clock of the speedometer scale) the needle jumpes to 240km/h instead of back to 0km/h
I will look more at the service manual pics posted above in this thread and see if there's something I could have missed.
Any advice are HIGHLY appreciated. Enough of this for tonight, time to enjoy looking at the tachometer while perfecting rev match downshifts 8)
EDIT: Also worth mentioning is that I tried this hooking up to the 2P (2 pulse) and not the VSS speed sensor:
http://dreamfield.dyndns.org/~eric/revburner/s13_cluster_02.jpg
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Maybe this can be of some help:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/Dark_Wave/KoukiType-XClusterWrringOn240SXS-1.jpg)
Full thread:
http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/186792-wiring-180sx-kouki-type-x-cluster-help.html
and
http://forums.nicoclub.com/kouki-type-x-cluster-wiring-help-t329088.html
Many people say that when you swap cluster on Nissan S13 or S14 it's very likely the speedometer will say show a doubled speed or half... however I get nothing, so either I need to ground the VSS or something in order for the speedometer to read the revburner signal coming into the "2 Pulse" input of the speedometer...
Or, could be that the wave the revburner outputs is not what the S13 cluster wants? Here I found something that might give answers:
http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/164351-s15-cluster-sig-converter.html
Quote from link above:
"-Signal conditioning-
IC3 and R8 are used to form the 50% duty cycle square wave. IC3 is a dual J/K
flip flop so the output will change its state once per pulse and dividing the
primary output freq by 2. This is needed because the output pulse width from the LM331
is too small.
Output here should be 12.5hz/mph
-ECU speed signal-
I did not put this part in because i dont need it and i dont care about it.
But if you want to make it you can. It will be the same as the Voltage to frequency converter primary
section except for different values for R9 and R10. The output will be fed into the second half of IC3
(remember its a DUAL j/k ff).
The output of IC3B will need to be 0.5hz/mph (still cant figure out why the ECU would want such a low resolution)
The input of this whole stage would be fed from the R3 and R2 junction."
Or maybe one of these could help me?
(http://www.epsilongraphics.com/img/sgi-5c.jpg)
Could it be as simple as having the revburner generating a Nissan S13 wave? Is the revburner open source?
Man I need to get this going so I can get myself the Pro Shift and button box... I'm glad this is the first part I got into towards my sim building, because it seems this will be the hardest problem I'll encounter :D
UPDATE:
This is my current setup (tacho works, speedo doesn't):
Revburner#1 = 12V hooked to PCB, + and - powers cluster (ignition and ground), signal goes to TAM on Nissan S13 and makes the tachometer move. Works flawlessly! :)
Revburner#2 = no 12V on the PCB, ONLY 1 cable, the signal cable leaves the PCB and hooks up to the 2P (2 pulse) bolt on the speedometer
Question: For Revburner #2, does that really send out a 12V square wave or do I need to bridge the + and - of the speedometer to Revburner#1 which has 12V adapter hooked to its PCB
UPDATE #2
Tried to hook up only speedometer PCB with 12V power and it made no difference :(
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Hello mate,
I'd make a little search on net and find the S13 speedo is a fairly special one. :-\
There are 2 type of speedo meter in S13 series, Digital and analog (Your cluster looks like analog type). The speedo is eay to damage and the only way is to replacement it with a aftermarket one etc...
For the current condition, I think you can try to find out what does conector [6] and [12] are used for and test them. Connector [7] are used for S15 cluster to S13 only and could be not compatible to rev burner. There must be a traditional singal input connectors...
I will check that excel file again when I back home. Not sure if [6] and [12] are speed signal related although...
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Why did I have to get me a S13 cluster... :)
It's true what you say, every forum I've visited it's always "S13 is a little tricky".
I suggested an improvement to symprojects, or I haven't yet. But I'll post a thread about it in a second so check it out.
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Maybe these notes I made when looking in the service manual helps. I'll upload more service manual pics in a little while...
S13 CLUSTER SPEEDOMETER
Connects to cluster with 5 bolts:
6 : VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor)
This is the other cable that hooks to the wheel sensor, I guess it is the + side of the VSS sensor, pretty sure it's a sine AC signal?
7 : 2P (2 pulse signal from ECU?)
12 : GND Common ground for cluster except blinkers indicators.
The VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor) is grounded here, read about pin 6 too
24 : IGN (+12V)
13 : 10K (Goes to differential oil cooler relay 1)
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Question: For Revburner #2, does that really send out a 12V square wave or do I need to bridge the + and - of the speedometer to Revburner#1 which has 12V adapter hooked to its PCB[/color]
The 2nd rev burner needs power too but don't plug in a second power supply. Instead connect the + and - terminals of the second rev burner to the + and - terminal of the first rev burner (which is connected to the power supply)
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To put an end to all this research I'm going to wrap this thread up and say that I'll get me some cheap tachometer and try to fit it in place of the speedometer (a project worth it's own thread lol)...
I think I finally found what an answer that I didn't want to read, yet, I had started to think that's how the S13 speedo works:
"I just looked at the s13 FSM and it shows the speed sensor going directly to the gauge cluster."
Also read that the 2 pulse signal that comes from ECU into the speedo is just a speed limiter, whatever that means. There's also some kind of switch that triggers at above 20km/h... man I'm dizzy researching.
If that is true and you have a look at the pinout notes I've written above.. That means the S13 speedo most probably wants a AC sine wave, FSM mentions pretty low voltage in the up to 1V range. VSS has 2 cables, one for ground and one for signal, but it's AC so I guess it doesn't matter if they're swapped. The VSS sensor is just some kind of HAL (or whatever it is called, those magnetic sensors) rotating and putting out a passive signal to the speedo.
Thanks for all the help and sorry to say I give up. As long as I the speedo going in my cluster I don't care if it's a type-r tach motor instead of the genuine nissan one :)
I'll go get me a tachometer and post pictures of the disassembly and speedo background fitting, as well as fitting it into the cluster. Bye for now.
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Goodluck mate! Looking forward to hear good news from you:)
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I can't f**king believe it! I got my tachometer today, one of these:
http://www.realcar.se/presta/product.php?id_product=17513
And guess what? I doesn't work. Light works though, but not the needle.
I'm gonna return it and get a type-r, anyone know a type-r confirmed to work? Plug & Play :D
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I got an answer on youtube about nissan cluster that I asked about a few days ago:
His answer:
"Hi, i connect the 5V output of the controller chip with a cap and a resistor to gnd. the you get +2.5V to -2.5V AC signal ! look on my wiki, there ist the wiring picture. bye dirk"
However he is not using the revburner, he's a DIY guy:
(http://www.x-simulator.de/wiki/images/Nissan-wiring.JPG)
Any symprojects experts here that could tell if it would be possible to use the revburner S1 signal and somehow get me the AC signal I need? I'd gladly donate if you know a way.. would be sweet to not have to fiddle with fitting the nissan needle and background to a type-r tachometer too ;)
"The type of signal generated by the Rev Burner is a square wave at 12V, whose frequency increases with the speed."
UPDATE:
I did my best on google and as far as I understand a pulse signal... I guess the square wave 12V that the revburner outputs is a 0VDC to 12VDC square wave signal, it has a idle and "on", idle on 0V and "on" at 12V, hence the pulse name I guess?
I tried LTSpice IV which I haven't used in years :)
Hooked up the same components like used in schematic above, but I also needed an extra resistor to be able to measure it, I guess it just act as a load?
My electronics skills are VERY noob like. But here's what I got:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MQDsqF-2O0
However, when pulse frequency change, the sine wave loose it's shape, not that there really was a sine wave in the video below, but most important question. Will it work to get my speedo going? At least it's close to a AC signal with zero DC offset :D
Since I'm novice when it comes down to this, I appreciate any input. Down want to start a fire...
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Anyone think this unit could solve ALL speedometers problems? As long as the speedo is a electric type speedo.
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=126/category_id=287/home_id=59/mode=prod/prd126.htm
Consider to get one and try...
questerymj, if you still have max speed issue I guess it would help you too.
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Just been in contact with Dakota.
They said there product could convert square to sine. I then asked if they are S13 fans themselves and know how its speedo works and I just got this mail:
"Surprisingly, we do have a bit of information on the ’86-92 240SX speedometer: Speedo responded only to AC sine wave input. J"
So, I'll order this unit right away and let you know my findings 8)
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Devs, is it possible to do a speedo sine wave firmware or is the rev burner IC's only capable of square waves?
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Devs, is it possible to do a speedo sine wave firmware or is the rev burner IC's only capable of square waves?
Hello.
Sorry the rev burner only outputs a square wave and I am not aware of any simple way to convert it to a sine signal.
Regards
Cristiano
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:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpSLtbnGVYM
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Congratulation!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D
Mind to post out how do you finally made it work for other mates? ???
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Solution, it was Dirk who took some time to help me. All credits to him!
http://www.youtube.com/user/elektronikjack
http://www.x-simulator.de/wiki/Tacho_Controller_by_Elektronikjack
Here's his schematic:
(http://forumbilder.se/images/0e32012121840ecff.jpg)
And here's a sketch I did in Photoshop. This is how I hooked it up:
(http://forumbilder.se/images/21320121212276cc6.jpg)
And finally, though not quite the same resistor values. Here's a simulation I ran in LTSpice that shows what it does:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MQDsqF-2O0
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GREATTTTTT!!!!
It's too lucky for you to found Dirk's post. :D
So to the end the problem is output from revburner is 12v/0v but the speed S13 cluster use +2.5V/-2.5V signal...what a different. I'm too lucky that my cluster use 12V/0V.
Thanks for sharing this to all other pit builders! And wish you enjoy great driving time with your S13 cluster!:)
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Yes old Nissan seems to want AC sine
Even though I don't get a smooth sine waveform from Dirk's setup it works. So I guess as long as the signal varies between + and - voltage everything works.
In fact, I requested from Dirk to draw a schematic that will end up at around +-2.5 VAC (the FSM mentioned +- 3VAC to be normal under the troubleshooting/testing section)
I'm sure it would work on +- 1VAC and +-5VAC as well, but 2.5 felt like a good compromise to be sure it would work AND not be harmful for the speedometer :)
It's just a matter of how much signal is sent to ground so easy to customize.
He had a Nissan 100nx cluster and it used the same signal as the Nissan S13.
I'm so happy this finally works. But I haven't yet tried it with the revmeter running at the same time... that may be another story lol :)